The Consolidation of Two Israels?
The exodus of secular and RZ (dati le'umi) families from Jerusalem and the harediazation of the city receives a lot of press. Apparently there is an equally significant exodus (if smaller in absolute numbers) from Tel Aviv, this one of Haredi families who lived in the downtown's mixed neighborhoods (click here and here).
If I were to ever make aliyah I would prefer--albeit with some reservations--to live in a mixed community. I think it is sad that this is fast becoming an impossibility in the country's two largest cities. (I do hear from a friend that there is a small RZ singles community near Dizingoff, although I assume that it is transient?)
Furthermore, while I am not exactly a haredi partisan, it is unsettling to consider that their absence means that Tel Aviv's secular community will become more removed than ever from the face of Judaism.
If I were to ever make aliyah I would prefer--albeit with some reservations--to live in a mixed community. I think it is sad that this is fast becoming an impossibility in the country's two largest cities. (I do hear from a friend that there is a small RZ singles community near Dizingoff, although I assume that it is transient?)
Furthermore, while I am not exactly a haredi partisan, it is unsettling to consider that their absence means that Tel Aviv's secular community will become more removed than ever from the face of Judaism.
Labels: Israel-Culture/Society
posted by Lion of Zion at 2:30 PM
15 Comments:
My understanding is that some neighborhoods in Jerusalem are becoming devoid of Israelis all together. Meaning, many of the apartments in the neighborhoods near the old city are owned by "foreigners" (i.e. Americans or Europeans who come infrequently to Israel). Israelis are priced out of those neighborhoods.
i've read about this too. but i wonder how much this really accounts for the exodus. it still seems as if secular/RZ are leaving at a much faster rate. haredim who can afford to remain do so (?). there are entire neighborhoods that 25 years ago were RZ or mixed secular-RZ but now they are all gone. those neighborhoods didn't empty out because of foreigners; today they are all haredi.
Pardon my ignorance, but what does RZ stand for?
RAIZY:
RZ = religious zionist
(and just for the record, i use this in the general sense of non-haredi, not in the more restrictive kookian, messianic, settler sense)
So is RZ the same thing as dati leumi?
RAIZY:
you mean DL? :)
yes
when we were buying our apartment, we decided on bet Shemesh because it was a mixed community. Over time, it has become less and less mixed. It still is, but much less so.
RAFI:
i assume you mean RBS.
does (did) RBS have hilonim also?
do you think you will stick it out long term.
In recently inquiring about real estate in Israel,I asked about modiin vs beit shemesh.The woman told me"you wouldn't like modiin.It's too liberal". I asked ,what does that mean-women in pants,woman's prayer groups?. She said,"well you may leave home to shul on shabbat,and your neighbor will be mowing his lawn.I answered "so?".I think this segregation is extremely unhealthy.When Rav Lau spoke in our neighborhood,he mentioned how Americans think there's no religious life in Tel Aviv.He said there are 450 shuls open 3 times/day for minyan,and 211 Daf Yomi's
HAIM:
do you mean bet shemesh or RBS?
i wouldn't have believed 450 shuls. i was in tel aviv only once for shabbat. we went to this humongous beautiful shul, but it was almost empty.
anyway, it is not very healthy.
people complain that the hilonim don't care about being religious. well living with them is the best way to demonstrate its beauty.
I mean Beit Shemesh.Ramat Beit Shemesh is a different animal altogether.Even Beit Shemesh people will tell you that it's become much less diverse than it once was
I agree about having a positive influence,but the current trend is to become more insular like the charedim so they won't be a bad influence on us.I'm totally not into that
HAIM:
i didn't think you meant RBS.
isn't rav rosner going to bet shemesh?
i was only in modiin once for an afternoon, adn the people i visited lived right at the entrance and i didn't get to see the town. but it seemed pretty barren. (i only say that because i know how much you like foliage)
i think a friend of mine bought in eden hills
"the current trend is to become more insular like the charedim"
its possible to blame the move of mafdal to the (political) right for this trend. although of course it can be argued about which came first.
Loz: if not the beauty of religion, at least its viability.
People like to bemoan the fate of Jlem, but it is not as bad as all that. True, the center is largely traditional/religious, with large areas almost exclusively so. But Rechavia still has a healthy amount of mechallelei Shabbos, and many outlying areas are largely secular -- areas of northern Jlem (e.g. Pisgat Ze'ev) are mixed, and predominantly not religious. This is true of southern Jlem -- take a look at Gilo. Har Hatzofim is largely irreligious for the time being. And let us not forget the old holdout of Beit Hakerem.
So Jlem still has some bone-deep atheists, thank God.
(Of course, the whole idea of a secular Israeli, and especially a secular Jerusalemite, is complex enough to give you a headache.)
s
s:
i guess that it is dramatic to watch some neighborhoods become haredi without considering that the newer neighborhoods on the periphery took in non-haredim.
i admit that i'm not familiar at all with many of jerusalem's neighborhoods, including most of the ones you mentioned. although we did stay in bet hakerem on our last trip and it was a weird place to be.
i was thinking of some of the areas i know best, such as sanhedria, sanhedria meruchevet, ramat eshkol, etc. i witnessed the change in sanhedria meruchevet in particular, as my grandmother has an apartment there. i was there in 1983 and 1985 and it was all dati leumi. by 89 there was a very heavy haredi presence. in 92 it was overwhelmingly haredi. i went back about 5 years ago and i was afraid my wife was going to be stoned.
"Of course, the whole idea of a secular Israeli . . ."
i'm not using it here in the sense of dogmatic left-wing aethism, but rather in the sense of non-orthodox. i know that there is a large middle-ground btw ortho and hiloni, what used to be known as lower-case masorati (b4 upper-case masorati had to get involved). but my impression is that that large masorati middle (especially among the edot ha-mizrah) is fast disappearing, or at least become a heck of lot less masorati.
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