A Perfect Husband/Father and Dealing With Sexual Predators
(Updtate: for more on this subject, click here for my earlier post.)
Irina is back after a hiatus with an interesting post about what she wants in a man (click here). It's worth a read, as it's a pleasant departure from the mindless and apish checklists that predominate in the shidduch world. I would like to copy and paste her no. 8:
A number of anonymous bloggers have written posts about this development in which they condemn Twerski for turning his back on Jewish children. Idiots. Let them cast aside their own anonymity before criticizing others for being cowardly.
(Click here for a follow-up post.)
Irina is back after a hiatus with an interesting post about what she wants in a man (click here). It's worth a read, as it's a pleasant departure from the mindless and apish checklists that predominate in the shidduch world. I would like to copy and paste her no. 8:
Putting family first. He has to be able to protect his family, just like I have to be able to protect it. That means standing up to whoever's causing trouble, even standing up to his own family if they are causing a rift and are creating issues for no reason other than their personal dislike of me or our relationship or the children. I won't have it; I don't want such a husband who can't stand up for me. That doesn't mean fighting with everybody constantly, but it does mean inculcating respect towards his choices in life (me and our relationship!) I also don't want a weak whiny creature; I want someone who will be willing to defend his family, even physically, if necessary. Please, someone who's not scared of guns!
* * *
R. Dr. Benzion Twerski, a respected psychologist, has stepped down from a task force formed to confront sexual predators in the Jewish community after receiving various threats from those who oppose this initiative (hattip: Babysitter; on the task force, organized by Dov Hikind, click here).A number of anonymous bloggers have written posts about this development in which they condemn Twerski for turning his back on Jewish children. Idiots. Let them cast aside their own anonymity before criticizing others for being cowardly.
* * *
In ProfK's latest post she relates that when her shul's candyman/shamas exposed himself to her as a six-year-old girl, her father and uncle knew exactly how to respond:They went to Mr. M's house and beat the crap out of him. They warned him that he had better find a new job. They told him they would be watching every breath he took.Of course that was back when men were men. I thought of Irina as I read ProfK's post and I realized how on target she is in her expectations of a husband. Best of luck Irina.
(Click here for a follow-up post.)
Labels: Jewish Community
posted by Lion of Zion at 8:05 PM
23 Comments:
"Of course that was back when men were men"
I would beg to differ with this attitude. So this man might have gone somewhere else and exposed himself again, molested a child, who knows. People have to understand that just pushing off a predator or a potential predator on someone else is not the solution. Also, I am familiar with a case where a man killed someone else because he felt that he had threatened to attack his children. The dead man had recently been released from jail, or investigated. Now the killer's children have to visit their father behind bars for a good part of their life.
Michael: Well, they should have reported him to the police ADDITIONALLY. :)
Lion: Thanks for the link!
IRINA:
not that my links are worth much, but there are a lot of them waiting if you start posting regularly again
MICHAEL:
even though there are no guarantees with this tactic and you might be pushing the predator off onto another victim:
a) שעת הדחק. unfortunately there isn't always another option. the context of profk's story was that there was really no other recourse and her father and uncle did what needed to be done in those circumstances. similarly today, when there actually other paths to pursue, many are not willing to pursue them. so again, you do the best you can do under the circumstances.
b) i am not going to pretend that i understand what goes on in the perverts' heads, but i am going to assume that there are different levels of pathology. yes, some are so bad that no matter how many beatings they get they will continue in their sick ways. others could probably be deterred with one good beating. in either case, doing nothing doubtlessly emboldens them and makes them feel that have carte blanche to do as they wish.
re. the father who killed someone, i don't know the specifics of the case. but everything has to be weighed out. if the children were really in danger *and* there was no other way to protect them, then doing something at the risk of going to jail was the right decision. better for the dad to be in jail than for the kids to be dead (or whatever is was that was threatened).
now a reasonable objection with resorting to violence is what there was indeed some type of misunderstanding? can the parent really be sure he needs to do what he think has to be done?
and then there's the other attitude...why wait for a man to do it? heck, if someone threatened my children in any way, g*d forbid, i cannot promise that i wouldn't beat the crap out of him/her myself. of course, i'd let my husband finish the job if need be.
yeah michael, shame on you! why should the egalitarian sentiment have to come from bec?
Re Twerski, if you want the perqs that come with leadership then you gotta take the heat. Do you really think he responded in the most advantageous way possible?
s
S:
"if you want the perqs that come with leadership then you gotta take the heat."
is he really a "leader" (he should not be confused with one of the elder and more famous twerskis), or was he called on board for his clinical expertise?
"Do you really think he responded in the most advantageous way possible?"
another option would have been to expose those who were threatening him.
but there is a difference between protecting himself and protecting his family.
Years ago, when we had a problem in our own community, we had the honor of having Dr. David Pelcovitz speak on this topic. I highly recommend listening to what he has to say.
One of the things he mentioned is a lot of children in the right-wing Orthodox communities have lost their sense of instinct, a natural instinct that something does not feel right. Prof. K, possibly to the credit of her parents, obviously retained an instinct of "this is not right."
Another thing he said is if you kick the molester out of your community, he will just go become "the candy man" somewhere else. He recommends "outing" the person (I am sure I am totally misquoting, one should really find out from him) so everyone in the community knows to keep their children away. But in our community he had the full support of our community rabbis.
I have nothing kind to say about "rabbis" that protect child-molesters. And I don't think beating the guy up is the best route, but I'm glad it protected the children in Prof. K's community. I can't blame this Dr. Twerski for wanting out. He doesn't need to be a martyr to this cause.
LEORA:
"a lot of children in the right-wing Orthodox communities have lost their sense of instinct"
is this really true? if so, why?
"He recommends "outing" the person (I am sure I am totally misquoting)"
even if you are misquoting, you are 100% correct
"But in our community he had the full support of our community rabbis."
who do you mean by "he"? (the "problem" or pelcovitz)
"I have nothing kind to say about "rabbis" that protect child-molesters."
to the contrary
"And I don't think beating the guy up is the best route"
whatever has to be done. (also, i can't say that these people don't deserve a sound beating even if they are ultimately dealt with in a more effecttive way)
"I can't blame this Dr. Twerski for wanting out."
agreed
Lion,
Re "a lot of children in the right-wing Orthodox communities have lost their sense of instinct"
is this really true? if so, why?
A commenter on my posting may have given one answer: they aren't believed when they say something happened. They are told it wasn't what they think it was. Tell a child that often enough and I would imagine they begin to lose faith in their own perceptions.
And thanks for the link to who has to report abuse in NY. That puts R Twerski's actions in a different light, and indeed the actions or inactions of many in the frum community.
"Michael: Well, they should have reported him to the police ADDITIONALLY."
All too often it's the "additionally" which people forget.
" similarly today, when there actually other paths to pursue, many are not willing to pursue them. so again, you do the best you can do under the circumstances."
That people are not willing to pursue them, is a failure of the community to protect their own children. The circumstances are created in a large part by the community. "Outing" someone is not a solution. The person is sick and needs help.
As to the father who killed the other man, I know many of the details. The two men were friends, hard to believe. X was arrested for molesting a girl. While out on bail, Y claimed that X bragged to him about how he was going to get away with his crime. Y also claimed that X threatened him and his family. Y got his gun, went over to X's house and shot him. Y confessed and was found guilty, but he was released from jail after a number of years because he was indicted incorrectly. It's an extreme case, but an example of where the belief "I'll protect my family" can lead to. Also, the topic for another discussion-both men has been drinking. See here for some statistics about the connection between alcohol and violent crime.
Michael,
Outing someone is indeed part of the solution. They do not believe they are ill and are hardly likely to seek help on their own without a push such as outing. Yes, they need help, but the professional literature gathered over the course of many decades points to the fact that sexual predators aren't rehabitable. There is no "cure" for what ails them. Recidivism in this group is ultra high. The only thing that seems to work is either to keep them incarcerated or to make their identity and location very public so that they are constantly under the microscope and fear being caught again.
PROFK:
"That puts R Twerski's actions in a different light"
yes. my question is how much access he had to hikind's dossier and if he knows names and specific accusations.
"and indeed the actions or inactions of many in the frum community."
this a symptom of a) general disdain for the larger civil society and authorities; b) the issue of מסירה
LoZ,
Regarding instinct, I'm not a psychologist, but I think Prof. K was on the right track with her response.
Regarding support in the community, the rabbis in Highland Park/Edison got together as a group and invited Dr. David Pelcovitz to speak. He is related to a local rabbi. I think a difficult situation was handled well.
I can see I'm going to be Googling "instinct" to get more informed.
This post has been removed by the author.
MICHAEL:
"That people are not willing to pursue them, is a failure of the community to protect their own children. The circumstances are created in a large part by the community. "
no disagreement here. this is a horrible lapse of both communal and individual responsibility. the בית דין של מעלה will very busy when this generation meets its Maker.
""Outing" someone is not a solution."
not in of itself, but within the larger context of also alerting the authorities
"The person is sick and needs help."
although i may have used "sick" myself somewhere above, i generally cringe when i hear people describe abusers (whether the pedophiles here or the infamous physical abusers in israel) as "sick." often i hear this in shul as "nebuch, this guy is really is sick." this minimizes the impact of their crimes, exculpates them of responsibility and implies there is a cure.
michael, it's not a secret that i'm not liberal when it comes to certain issues. crime and punishment is one of them. i particularly have zero sympathy when the crime involves harming children. (my stomach turns even just watching fictional depictions of abuse on tv or in movies)
as far as the story you related, the detail you left out is the nature and credibility of the threat
Lion Of Zion: what does Hiatus mean? I keep seeing it.
Thanx for the link.
That is very interesting. I was just talking to an engaged friend and she was saying how when she gets married her husband is going to be more on top of her than her father was. That her father never asked where she was going or how she was getting home. She said that she heard husbands ask where your going, how long you will be out, and everything to know your where abouts. So I asked her if she thinks her future husband will be like that, and she said she doesn't even know, but she thinks he might. But I guess it does she that they care and have concern. That their more protective.
I have a question, these sick people that do these things, do they have other additional problems too? or is it just this one area? to they appear as normal people? or would you be able to tell that something is wrong with them?
If they are so sick that they can't help themselves even if they know its wrong, then it doesn't seem like they have logical reasoning, it seems like mentally something is wrong. In that case shouldn't they be in mental institutions along with other "crazy" people?
BABYSITTER:
there is a difference between knowing someone's whereabouts and controlling them. i had to read your first paragraph a few times to make sure you were referring to the former.
i get nervous myself when my wife is out night and i try to drive her as much as possible. not that anything has ever happened to her and i'm the one who was mugged walking home one night from glatt mart
"I have a question . . ."
i have no idea. as far as i know i personally don't know any molesters.
on the one hand i assume that they otherwise fit in, otherwise you'd know to stay away from them; on the other hand, i'm sure there is some type of profile of the "typical" molester
"shouldn't they be in mental institutions along with other "crazy" people"
i don't care if they are incarcerated, hospitalized or thrown off a cliff. i just want a guarantee they will never be near kids.
just to make a quick point. as an educator, i am technically a mandatory reporter. not only does it mean reporting someone who is a possible abuser, but more importantly reporting someone who exhibits signs of being or having been abused so he/she can get help and hopefully the abuser can be identified and then arrested. sadly, these disgusting human beings hardly get any time in prison anyway. btw, i still stand by my earlier statement.
Lion of Zion: I think I thought of an answer for my question. Gonna write a post about it.
Bec: you just reminded me of something. I heard that a certain camp asked on their staff application if the person was ever abused. I thought it strange at the time, but not reading your comment, it makes sense.
BEC:
"as an educator, i am technically a mandatory reporter."
in NYS only in public schools. if you work for a yeshivah you are not included as a mandatory reporter. measures to rectify this were halted, in part, by agudath israel a few years back. i don't know what their position is today.
BABYSITTER:
looking forward to your post
there is a cycle of abuse, where those who are abused in tern abuse others. that application question could be an effort to weed this out. but i can't believe that someone would honestly answer this question on a job application, and for a frum camp no less.
BABYSITTER:
"hiatus" is a suspension of something. i first learned the meaning of this word as a little boy when i looked up my favorite show in TV Guide and was informed that the show was on hiatus and taken off the air.
i was very upset at the time, but in retrospect i learned a new word. you see, you can learn something from watching tv ;)
Lion Of Zion: Ok, its up there. Just my thoughts.
I was thinking that to, that no one would honestly answer.
thanx, for explaining that, now I know!
I can imagine :-)
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